Psychology & The Cross

 So, Jakob, face to face with Christianity. You've been at this for a couple of years now, I guess. Two or three years since you started the Psychology of the Cross podcast. Is that right? Yeah, I think something like that. Two years ago. Yeah, and it's, it's easily the most intensive engagement with Jung on Christianity, at least on the, on the internet.

So what is it that attracted you to this very specific topic in Jung? Well, I mean, I think attracted could be a positive way to, to describe it, but sometimes when I'm thinking about it, it's more like I was dragged into it, honestly. My training at the institute, ISAP in Zurich, you know, that was a very interesting and very rewarding experience in many ways, but also very difficult.

But as, as things go, I was sort of taken by some of the questions in my life. And I was looking for answers to sort of come to terms with some difficulties, let's say. And Jung was very helpful there, but I think, as you said in another podcast, maybe for me, at least, it wasn't the end of the road.

So I started to get more engaged in Christianity and understand it. And I think I understood along the way that maybe Yeah, Jung wasn't the best introducer to Christianity, so that's why I started to have conversations with others like yourself, those others within the Jungian field, to see how they have tried to sort of interlink these ideas, or how are they related.

I needed to understand how are they related, and because I had gotten a little bit, I think, confused in following Jung in some of the directions that he took later in life. One of the things I was gonna say to ask you is that, so Yung opens up the whole world of myth and religion.

So one could absolutely go anywhere with Yung, right? Native American, Asian, Buddhist, prehistoric. Why? Why Christianity? Why did, why was that your place of concentration? Well, I mean, partly was. As it is own experiences that I had that had to do more with my, my inner life and what I, what I was confronted with.

So it was, as I think I told you, and also people on the podcast, I'm not religious upbringing at all. God was not mentioned in my house. So very different from Jung. So it was, , those were the, let's say, the images or the experiences that I had, and they were pointing in this direction.

So that's why that became , important for me, but also, on a more intellectual level, I tried to understand Jung, and as we said many times in the podcast, to understand Jung, you need to sort of engage with Christianity on some level, and I wasn't served that during my training.

Although someone like Murray Stein, of course, had researched it, but it was a training where Christianity was not spoken of, or if it was spoken of, it was kind of quite often directly Jung's view on Christianity or Christ, reducing it at times at least to something of a, yeah, became a part of his theory.

So that's where I, yeah, I wanted to open a space for having these conversations. And if I, I mean, I had them with myself, but, you know, by reaching out to Murray Stein and yourself and others. I suddenly had this, room where I could, yeah, engage with these questions with people who spent a lot of time with it.

So that's been very, very rewarding. And I guess this book is just the, yeah, the fruit of that. So it's interesting that you say that you've got to understand Christianity to understand Jung, and not every Jungian. Is aware of that or would even agree with that. I don't think so. That's a pretty that's a pretty specific and important point.

I think so. And as you went deeper into this discussion with unions and theologians and scholars, how did that insight develop? How did it? the change? Did you confirm that Christianity is essential to Jung? Is it even more essential than you thought? How would you characterize, now, Jung's relationship to Christianity after the book?

Well, I think that what has become more clear to me is that I believe if we would give Jung another 20 years, I think he would have continued, , his focus on Christianity and maybe come to different conclusions. So, so my, my sense is that Jung's project is kind of unfinished in that regard.

It's not unfinished as a, you know, psychological theory, it's very rich and it's very rewarding and it's very helpful, , as it is, and you can use it in many different ways and it's not, you don't have to be a Christian to get great benefits from, from Jung's teaching in, in a way. So that, in that way, he created some sort of Science, or at least humanistic, , science that, , is helpful, I think, for most, but I think that when it comes to Christianity, there was somehow in the last works of Jung, I feel like it's expressing it quite clear that he, he sees sort of or he envisions, or he fantasizes about the future where, where Christianity somehow in some way, I don't know, reformed or rediscovered is probably a better word by, you know, understanding those truths, you know, in a new life.

I'm not reading as much Jung these days, if I read Jung, I read really what he did in the last years and what he was working on then. And that's sort of my, my, it's not a conclusion, but that's my hypothesis that there was more work to do.

And since he died, there's others who sort of have to take that on. So where do you think he would have gone with

Christianity? And I think we completely agree that Christianity was Jung's central focus. You could say that Freud had a focus on Judaism in a certain way, but Jung had the dream Of the Emerald Christ and decided that he had to do the psychoanalysis of Christianity and so that it's, and it's obviously caught up, bound up with his childhood and his, the religion of his upbringing and the father and all of these things.

And I think that we've, you've gone into that in such depth in the podcast. That we probably don't need to rehearse it, but what we didn't talk very much about is this interesting point you just made that if he had another 20 years, he would have gone. Yeah. He would have continued deepening his research into Christianity, and perhaps you suggested he might have come to some different conclusions.

What would you speculate? Where do you speculate Jungian, or Jung, Jung's thought would have gone with Christianity, or where it should go even?

Well, I, I, I'm not sure, honestly, but I, I, I have a sense that it's not a conclusive, , he didn't come to a conclusion. Maybe he did, for himself, but we don't know about it. But it's like, he didn't, conclude or find a synthesis, or maybe he tried not too much to find some sort of synthesis between his science or theory and Christianity.

If one speculates, I mean, the first step, in my mind would probably be that he would have become, become more, A believer of sorts, , I, I think Jung's faith is quite difficult. We, we always come back to that interview. I don't need to believe I know and the agnostic union.

And it's like Jung became so focused on the experience, his father and all of them were all focused on the, On the faith aspect, and I guess I would be curious to see how he explored faith, and I still feel like he's reworking of Christ, or his relationship to Christ is very helpful for some people who've grown up with a very literal view of Christ, but I think it's also somehow still I was almost about to say immature or something.

At least it doesn't feel like he has what do we say, kneeled to, to touch his forehead to the ground. So some sort of conversion. Yeah, conversion. That's extremely interesting to me. And so let's, this gets at a point that I wanted to I wanted to ask you about. So, you know, you've indicated that from the get go you weren't satisfied somehow with.

What Jung was doing with Christianity, and now you see that, you know, had he had a chance, he probably would have, he probably would have changed his view somewhat. So what do you think is the Achilles heel, if there is one, or what's, what is the weakness of his position? What's, what's wanting to, Jung's position on Christianity, where, or where do you see the problems?

At least that. I think one of the weaknesses is reducing Christ to, to an archetype. That's very blunt put, but I do think , , although he might have placed him higher on some level, I don't think he understood Christ. I'm not saying this to say that I understand him, but, and I do think there is I think there is something in Jung is difficulties in loving, , others.

There's some sort of, difficulty in connecting with the collective or connecting with the poor or reaching out of his own bubble at times. So that's where I see the sort of weakness in his psychology that it becomes too mystical. And that's what I feel very strongly in his last works.

Again, he spent, as you know, like his last works dealing with the collective, whether it was about UFOs or whether it was about the undiscovered self, he was really interested in, , What role does individuation have to play in a world that's on fire? Back then, maybe, yeah, it was on fire, , with a nuclear.

And the big division between the East and the West. So that's where I find Jung's ideas really interesting for today's time. It's all this, , if you look inside and you will find that there's great truth to that. But today, you know, I think we need to also learn to look outside.

And that's a great weakness of Jung, Jungian psychology at times, and that's a great advantage of Christianity in its best form, as you have said, it's a vision for the world, goes way beyond the individual. Yes, so it's kind of Jung's individualism, which sometimes can encourage a narcissism, I think, which is so kind of anathema to Christianity.

Christianity almost appears to be an extroverted way when you compare it to some Jungianism. But let's go to the archetype business, because it seems to me that's really crucial. So if Jung is an, if Christ is an archetype, what are the consequences? If Christ is not an archetype, what are the consequences?

Hmm. Well. I feel like you're asking the question and I'm pretty certain that you could flesh that out better than me, but I think again, one of the consequences of reducing Jesus to Christ to an archetype is that it becomes, , individualism. It doesn't become, it doesn't become a better world.

It doesn't become, , a vision that's big enough to to transform this world that we see in front of us. And so that's also it needs to be compensated with this more extroverted side. So that's why I find so, so rich this sort of dialogue between Christianity and history. I mean, it's, it's not even, and Jungian analysis and this very simplified, but important.

observation that I make again and again, , with all this huge interest in coming in to work on yourself, get in contact with your dreams, understand the unconscious, , that all this needing for meaning and purpose. But at the same time, we're seeing the churches is not the place that you go for that.

So my hope is just to continue to have dialogues with the church, because I think that people within the church actually can have benefit a lot from the psychological work of, of, of Jung. But vice versa, , like, I think we need, we have a lot to learn and Christianity is a bigger vision than union.

Psychology. Much bigger. Christianity is bigger than you. Sounds about right. So now you've talked, you've talked to some of the, you know, leading voices in the field. People who have different takes on this from, you know, let's say I, for, for me, Murray Stein is much more Orthodox view in this regard. And somebody like Paul Bishop is, you know, has this broad scholarly perspective on the whole thing.

And, you know, I think I've got a bit of a theological voice in the, in the company. So do you see any broad consensus or lines of, you know agreement forming or do you see there's. Would you, how would you characterize the field of inquiry into Jung and Christianity now that you've done this really comprehensive survey?

Are there, are there, is there a couple schools you'd like to identify or a couple themes around which people seem to be gathering? How would you position the community right now? Yeah, that's a good question. I cannot say based on this that I see themes. I mean, I, I found it interesting to see that some people have for themselves, it seems to come to terms with you and Christianity, or they found their own ways to be Christian and unions.

I think also for myself, that's easier these days. But so that's like, I think, inspiring to see people who have found their own ways to be Christians, but also working with Jung's ideas on a deeper level. But I think that the transformation or the change, or what I'm really interested in is not so much the experts I'm more interested in, I think, as you have also pointed out, , you know.

Yeah, just normal people who engage in these ideas , and it seems like there is a movement not only into Jungian analysis, but I think this renewed interest also in Christianity, although what I said about the church, maybe that's not a renewed interest in the church, but absolutely in Christian ideas and to take them seriously.

and take them on as the deepest depth psychology. So, like, take it on, like, intellectually, or take it on, like, with your feeling. That's what I'm interested, I think, to continue to explore, like, just people, maybe more like listeners or analysands and how these ideas, , can be carried onward and forward.

As Jung said, that there is something in Christianity that holds the seed, he says, of the future. It holds the seed, and it has to be Yes, you also stated in constant renewal, and I think it has a role to play there. But I mean, I had a conversation the other day again with Donald Carver that you also spoke to.

And, , there's interesting work also in other fields. And it seems like, yeah, maybe there's an opening up. Not to create one conclusive school or some, , necessary path, but just, yeah, make it easy for people to, to work through these ideas and come to their own conclusions.

And I think that's, we've done some work that, you know, in the last years. Also helping people who get, got as lost as I did, , reading Christianity for the, for the lens of you.

So you seem to be a voice who you're not entirely alone in this, but you're not the mainstream who believes that Christianity is not over, but that it's got a future and that there is a renewal of interest in broadly in religion and, you know, in the, in the, in the new generation. And Maybe even more so a renewed reassessment of Christianity, which was, you know, the baby boomers give it a pretty bad rap.

So you seem to be part of a kind of wave that would include other voices on the internet. Can you say a little bit more about, you know, what you think the role, what the future of Christianity could be or why Christianity is so unignorable, even in a secular European context? I mean, honestly. I don't have any natural vision where Christianity would go or, but I guess as the world is looking these days, no, as, as things are looking around us, we are brought back to essentials, or we are back to asking these big, big essential questions again, and, and, and then, and they're accessible to anyone, , I think the world is sort of pressing us to better, better answers, and ask better questions. I think the religious realm has to be taken very serious. And we have to understand that it's not something in some other land, it's something that has to do with how we, , wake up in the morning and meet the other.

And that's where I feel like psychoanalysis is a practice that should help people. With that, Christianity can be a way to live one's life, truthfully. But again, I've seen also terrible examples where Christianity is done the opposite than where I have to work, for example, with persons in analysis who've been destroyed by ideology.

I just know that for me, that there is some truth there. And I But I, I don't know if there is a vision for the future. I think we see also very bad examples of Christianity used in the service of right wing parties, , in Europe, so, and in the U. S. as we discussed. So it's a very complex thing, but I think there's room to engage with it, both as you've been doing, like, very critically, but also with, with love and appreciation and with knowledge about its, its, deep impact.

Yeah, because there's there's some enthusiasm for Christianity that's coming from the right, and it's more of an enthusiasm for the church or for a certain kind of traditionalism that, for whatever reason, people want to return to, and you don't seem to have much to do with that.

So it's almost as though you want to say, you know, Christianity first, then maybe Church. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I mean, , I am, I'm very interested in the Church and understanding, , the role of the Church today and what we discussed in secular Christ, but I am, yeah, I think many people have difficulties in, in that, but the Christian ideas, they are free and they're available and And now they also teach, or you can find really good teachers online who can help you to understand in what way this has an importance for today, or people who can view it more symbolically, like this Jonathan Pagueux, or maybe Jordan B.

Peterson for some people. But the church is, you know, something that I'm very, very interested in to continue to see how the church again could maybe bring in some more of, of. ideas from depth psychology , yeah, I think it could be rather helpful. But I'm not sure, you know, again, the church is a very broad term, but I guess many people are not seeking the church, but they're seeking healing or salvation.

But of course, also community, community is something that I hear again and again, people long for. And I don't know if the church will continue to be that place or if it will take a different shape. I guess we will have to wait and see. Yeah.